"Buy a set or be a loser!" - B. Warner
Hey all - Brad's posted an announcement that the Shobogenzo translated by Nishijima / Cross is again available for purchase (4 volumes at $23.99 a vol). He gives a few more details at his blog.
I'm tempted but wonder what others think about this - if anyone has experience with the Shobogenzo, etc? I'm about to move to Alaska so this purchase will have to wait until I settle down. Also, it sounds like some pretty intense scholarship is required to really get through the thing (and understand it). From what I've read of Justin's comments / posts it seems a bit intimidating, to be honest. I suppose it's probably like most things in life - you can get out of it what you put into it.
posted by Derek (formerly 'me') @ Tuesday, June 06, 2006
12 comments
12 Comments:
me, if you want to get started on book 1, it is available as a non-printable e-book for $8. you can test drive it before you make a larger cash commitment.
http://www.booksurge.com
In my opinion, there are only two good zen books: (1) the Shobogenzo, and (2) whatever you have to read to inspire you to read the Shobogenzo. I have been reading Buddhist literature of all stripes since 1979, and this is the only thing I've ever read that wasn't misleading. (In my case, the book that led me to read the Shobogenzo was Brad's, after I'd been floundering around for years looking for which Buddhist school I belonged in, or back in; but it might be anything for anyone. Skillful means.)
The book is of course very hard to understand, but Nishijima has cracked the code on the thing and lays it out in the Intro. So it's a lot more readable than it might appear at first glance. I read it in very short bursts, not because I couldn't read more, but every word means something and I have to let it absorb.
I don't believe in sacred texts. This is just the best finger pointing at the moon I've seen. The only thing that makes me worry is, what exactly did Mike Cross do, and what did he insert.... ?
I've read the first book. I was expecting it to be a difficult scholarly read too, but was pleasantly surprised. It's very readable. Well done, Mr. Nishijima and Mr. Cross.
I am of the opinion that Brad got a slap on the wrist from his teacher for trash talking Mike Cross...and thus took his whole blog down....
Sounds like a guy who really has figured it out. Used to think he might know some stuff, now i think he's just a good talker...
I am of the opinion that Brad got a slap on the wrist from his teacher for trash talking Mike Cross...and thus took his whole blog down....
Sounds like a guy who really has figured it out. Used to think he might know some stuff, now i think he's just a good talker...
if you guys are too scared to read the literal, yet readable translation of Shobogenzo, then why don't you try the modern interpretation of SHobogenzo several chapters by Michael Luetchford. They are not some kind of HIS personal ideas about what Shobogenzo is, but just a translation taken a further step to the way a modern person think. So it is still a translation and still authentic.
here's the link http://www.dogensangha.org.uk/about.htm
and find it under Downloads and Modern Interpretation of Shobogenzo
and it is free to download
Here is the link - thanks Ryunin.
Modern Interpretations of the Shobogenzo by Michael Eido Luetchford
Looks good.
That sounds like good advice Mike - just read it and let the words and images wash over you - soak up the meaning by osmosis.
However, just from my selective reading (Bendowa, Genjokoan) I suspect that there are knotty metaphors and finer points of Buddhist philosophy which will take some study and comparison between translations and differing interpretations to hope to understand.
Thanks ryunin & everyone - those modern translations look like a good place to at least get one's feet wet!
Again, I like these translations - the Heart Sutra in particular, but I'm inclined to agree with jinzang. An example of what he's talking about is the koan about a zen master fanning himself, which is given without any real interpretation. What does it mean? Dogen isn't just telling a story about a man fanning himself of course. IMO it is a metaphor for the question if we already have Buddha Nature (/already are 'enlightened') then why do we need to practice? The 'wind' in the metaphor is the reality that interpenetrates everything - emptiness, Buddha Nature.
Sorry, I meant to say it is found at the end of Genjokoan.
I have trouble with "classic" texts when I need to understand the local metaphors and social history that the author was living in. To me, that is just poor communication. It was probably more evident to people who lived during the time it was written. But for me to pretend to understand what Dogen meant... well, I just don't.
I depend on good translators... good historians.
The Buddha didn't grow up in a vaccuum. He lived within a Hindu society that was already doing a form of zazen, and was certainly concerned with "spiritual" inquiry. I believe that he was a product of his environment... not some kind of omniscient Jesus figure that supposedly popped out of nowhere.
I imagine he struggled with difficulties, and acquired knowledge and insight by tacking his difficulties.
I imagine that he was likely more insightful than most people. But more importantly... he was able to transmit his new knowledge and intuitions to others. He was a good communicator. Communication is so important. The transmission from one person to another is crucial.
And that is why I read this blog, and Brad's blog... and yes, old zen texts. I read everything I can. I learn a lot from you people. And I learn from zazen. It is all good.
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